Curse

Kuldebar Valiturus · Mar 01, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

Not the best example. McDonalds lost the case, and badly. Once you learn the facts of the case, it's pretty clear McDonalds was extremely negligent and discriminatory.

Really, it isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be. That's why I posted in an earlier comment that legal maneuvering in civil suits aren't the best way to determine objective reality. For the opposing side of the Stella Liebeck and the McDonald's coffee case click here.

So, it's a bad example because it will just spark further debate as the facts of the case will indicate.

Adam Sunstrom isn't guilty of slander or libel, so expectations of some form redress are entirely unfounded.

*Warning: Editorials contain opinions!

Lonesamurai · Mar 01, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

The thing is, its a case of wording...

You can say the exact same thing two different ways, one way will offend, one way will flatter and enlighten... Adam did the first and thats whats blown this out of proportion...

I personally agree with some of the statements in teh article, i, however, disagree witht he way they were written and the easily inflamitary way they can be taken... Oh and they were taken that way too, this thread proves it

Kuldebar Valiturus · Mar 01, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The thing is that 3 out of 4 of those things are I've only ever seen on a build in AB/RA - both pvp areas. I've certainly never encountered them in the L20+ areas of pve.

The core insult is still there - it boils down to equating pve'ers with poor/new players.

I just don't understand the concept that every person that buys a copy of Guild Wars can not be considered a novice.

A big selling point for Guild Wars is PvP. People are enticed to play Guild Wars for PvP. It can't be out of the question that some players are going to fit some of the categories:

-have never played any online game before

-have never played PvP

-do not know skills and skill chains yet

-reluctant to try PvP

-are the type of people that have to learn for themselves first

Really, it's a big assumption that there can't be people that fit any of those criteria when it comes to playing the game.

I personally never set down and "studied" skills. I thought Mending was a damn cool skill, every other game a I played having a health regen buff was an awesome thing.

A lot of things look reasonable on the face of things. I think it's ignorant to suggest there aren't poor/inexperienced players in Guild Wars.

Many people who may have an interest in PvP will first try PvE to get a feel for the game, it's not unreasonable to conclude that these people may migrate over to PvP at some point.

Purchasing skill unlocks aside, some people try PvE in order to acquire these things. As a beginner player, that seemed to me to be a reasonable way to proceed before attempting to go wild in PvP.

20 months later, I still haven't done anything more than random arenas, lol.

BDZeres · Mar 01, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

My guildies and I started out in PvE, but the PvE / PvP tension has always been very palpable, imo this is because being good at PvE gives you very little advantage at being good in PvP, other than knowledge of + exposure to a variety of skills / builds (assuming you like to experiment in PvE).

You really do have to "unlearn" PvE ideas such as tanking, aoe nuking without snares etc - and the particle does provide explanations why these tactics are less useful in PvP, which i would find helpful if i were a casual gw player. IMO while PvE does teach you a lot about game mechanics, there is little emphasis on teamwork + build coordination outside guild groups because you can beat most missions in proph, factions and NF with PUGs (or better yet, Heroes FTW).

When Anet adds areas that require such coordination (such as FoW, UW, DoA, Urgoz/Deep and some of the harder mission areas) we end up with some people complaining its "too hard". Its really not, if you have the time + build + a modicum of skill. PvP, just like high-end PvE, is all about skill synergy and teamwork. Thats it.

Keithark · Mar 01, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

This article is not the way to get that done...tripple faction,fame, etc will not do it either. It is sooooo simple if that is really what they want to do. Make PvP rewards that are attainable by casual players and there will be 20 districts all the time in all PvP areas. XX gold for a win in RA + xx gold for flawless and xx gold for 10 in a row... xx gold for win in TA (higher than the gold in RA), same for halls and gvg with increasing value from ra, ta, ha, gvg. There is just no reason to PvP for me because there is such little reward. I know that there are HUGE rewards for that .0001% that are good enough to win all the time but if I have to play for a year or more and find enough like minded people to get them to play for that length of time to get good enough to get the high end "prizes" then it is pointless. Think about how long it would take average player to get good enough and get a good enough team to get those prizes...now think of all the gold that same player could have farmed in that same amount of time if they just stuck with PvE.

Bread Fan · Mar 01, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

There is just no reason to PvP for me because there is such little reward.

Competition? Dunno about you but to me killing the same thing over and over again and knowing what to expect each time is quite dull. My biggest reward is the challenge and defeat in PvP.

On a side note I did a little PvE the other day as a monk. I was in a group and they asked what kind of monk am I. I said standard zb prot. They argued and argued saying that prot is useless... I finally left the group and did the bonus mission with heros and henchies. I guess they wanted another healing breeze, HP spammer.

B Ephekt · Mar 01, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The thing is that 3 out of 4 of those things are I've only ever seen on a build in AB/RA - both pvp areas. I've certainly never encountered them in the L20+ areas of pve.

Nearly ever time I go do some pve mission I see subpar players with subpar builds. When I get bored enough to pve, I almost always PUG... just for the pure comedy of the experience.

Quote:

The core insult is still there - it boils down to equating pve'ers with poor/new players.

PvErs are 'new' when then start the transition to PvP, and are often 'poor' at it - if only at first. I fail to see your point.

Warskull · Mar 01, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The thing is that 3 out of 4 of those things are I've only ever seen on a build in AB/RA - both pvp areas. I've certainly never encountered them in the L20+ areas of pve.

The core insult is still there - it boils down to equating pve'ers with poor/new players.

You'll see tons of this stuff in PvE too. Bad players are everywhere and they outnumber the good ones by a lot. I tend to hero/hench everything now. I consider heroes/hench bad players with good bars while I consider anyone I would pick up in the outpost a bad player with a bad bar.

I've seen fire monks in PvE (trying to do a rotscale run and wondering why we were dying.) Tanks are a dime a dozen, seriously one copy of watch yourself, maybe 1 stance, then 3 attack skills! Mending has waned in popularity, but is still around.

If you want to find bad players in PvE go to thunderhead keep, invite some random players, and watch the trainwreck happen. If you want to find bad players in PvP visit HA.

Zorglubb · Mar 01, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

>Make PvP rewards that are attainable by casual players
>and there will be 20 districts all the time in all PvP areas

Rewards are *not* going to do any good to PvP IMO, if anything they're part of the problem.

All other successful forms of PvP gameplay (FPS, RTS, MMOSG etc.) don't have rewards beyond a global ranking system (not a /rank!). What they do have however, is something that IMO GuildWars sorely misses: a punishment system. Something that punishes players for ruining others gameplay experience, be it teamkills, penalties for leaving/disconnecting, votekicking, etc.

IMO removing the PvP rewards and instating punishments would probably do a whole lot more towards reviving GW PvP than adding yet more rewards that lend themselves to AFK farming, leeching and quit-griefing. It works in all other PvP games, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work in GW.

The other part of the equation would be making PvP introductions, via lower level arenas and in-game channels. There are hundredth and hundredth of skills, that a an awful lot. Similarly there are dozens of hexes and conditions, whose mechanics *aren't* explicited in-game! There is not even a description of how much degen "poison" causes, or what the effects of "dazed" really are, etc. All the info has to be found online, and off-game, which is intrinsically not player friendly.

Gli · Mar 01, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Here's a thought.

Has anyone considered that players who are new to PvP might be using crap skills because those are the skills they were handed while they worked their ways toward the Battle Isles? Make a new account in Cantha, play until you reach Kaineng City and try go PvP from there. You won't get far.

What Adam is really saying is, you haven't played enough PvE if you bring crap PvE skills to PvP. "Don't PvP, you silly bugger, go get some good skills! See you in a few months."

EDIT: cleaned up a typo.

Shmanka · Mar 01, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

This topic has gotten quite hostile and dull from different people, and after reading what has just happened I am not mad at the article insulting PvE to the extent of being "n00b"

What I am most angry about atm is just how Anet/Gaile has handled this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

If someone threatens to quit over the publication of such a benign opinion article--or if someone actually does quit--I wish them well. There are a million thoughts behind that message, but in the interests of closure, I offer you zero offensiveness, condescension, or hostility.

Now Gaile I am truly not telling you how to do your job, but that should not have been said which is why this outcry from a few notable players and people I have discussed over ventrilo this issue with all come to agree.

You have insulted these people. Intentional or not, it has happened.

Then what I bolded in your quote is a response, your not kicking out someone for stealing in your grocery store, you're telling them to leave when they innocently wanted to purchase milk and bread.

I know you listen to us, and we are thankful. Although I have seen some good arguments here as much as you do not agree with me or others here.

Conclusion: A type of Apology must be given, it is political not personal.

Bastian · Mar 01, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorglubb

The other part of the equation would be making PvP introductions, via lower level arenas and in-game channels. There are hundredth and hundredth of skills, that a an awful lot. Similarly there are dozens of hexes and conditions, whose mechanics *aren't* explicited in-game! There is not even a description of how much degen "poison" causes, or what the effects of "dazed" really are, etc. All the info has to be found online, and off-game, which is intrinsically not player friendly.

While I am not sure I agree with the beginning of your post - I wholeheartedly believe that this suggesstion would help a great deal.

An in-game tutorial/walk-through of the various maps in GvG/HA with commentary would be very beneficial. Being able to access PvP matches within these tutorials would be very helpful. Actually having playable templates for new players would be very helpful.

I think if ANet really wants to help new players transition from PvE to PvP or from bad PvP to decent or good PvP - they need to take the steps to create new content that will help them do this. Changing the content we already have is clearly not the answer. I still see people in HA running terrible build, Warriors with Life Transfer, Monks with Healing Breeze, Assassins with Vigorous Spirit. I almost feel bad for them because they don't know any better and get turned off from PvP because everyone LOL's them out of the arenas. I am just as guilty in this regard. However, I have also had the priviledge to help people out that listened. (Like the monk using mending and vig spirit. He actually listened to me when I told him other monk bars. He didn't have Nightfall so I shared a Blessed Light build. He still PM's me occassionally to get additional info). And that is the other half of the battle. Most "noob" PvPer's don't want to listen. They don't want to use the same build others are using. They try to be creative and then fail because they don't understand PvP enough to know why certain skills are crap - or why Rangers running Elementalist spells isn't going to get you very far.

So you have 2 sides. PvP players that scrutinize and make game play lousy for people that don't know any better. And then the people that don't know any better not wanting to listen or be helped. This is why I think a tutorial would be an excellent choice. Show the common builds, how to beat them, how to run them, what common tactics people use... Just provide more help for players.

I would highly suggest that ANet not try and accomplish this on their own. Based on what we have seen as a community, I don't think that they have as good of a grasp on the current state of the game as some of the veteran players do. I think that a cooperative effort between the two, done well, would yield excellent results and improve the state of PvP in general.

Allanon754 · Mar 01, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

I know this topic has spiraled out of control but I for one would like to get in back on path.

First of all I agree with many of his statements with PvE'ers. I'm sorry as many people on these boards might be very good at PvE'ing, but I've played with guildies and friends who have PvE'ed and tried to PvP with them and they have done a lot of those things. The sad thing is a lot of PvE'ers dismiss PvP right out, because they try to play with pubbers and things to terribly for them. I for one offer my condolences to you, as I often stay away from HA PvP for that one reason. Still look at PvP in all other MMO games (not RTS and FPS, those are different) and you will find many wild west systems such as Ultima Online where people can simply attack other people. Guild Wars has a very nice PvP system and it's a shame more people don't take advantage of it.

lennymon · Mar 01, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Look guys n gals, the controversy/tension whatever is only there because people are ignorant. People can be great players and still only enjoy pve and vice versa. The problem is that when some one who is rightfully proud of their skills in whichever game they play gets taken out of context it becomes the macho who's got a bigger hammer game. This article points at the rift from the perspective of a *very* immature pvper (thank goodness there aren't very many of them) and everyone's getting bent out of shape just because the guy forgot to echo mending (the greatest skill in the world!). This rift is in y'alls heads, it's not real unless you act like a 13 year old and give it fuel.
Just play the game YOU enjoy and quit flaming each other (noobs

).
apology? for what stating his 13 year old opinion? do you ask or demand an apology from every tard in RA?

frojack · Mar 01, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Is this thing still alive? Man...

They made a mistake and pissed people off. We all know already. As do they. You can bet all your shiny pencils it won't happen again. So is there any point of continuing this steam-roller? It's out of juice guys. Seriously...

JoeKnowMo · Mar 01, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Conclusion: A type of Apology must be given, it is political not personal.

I demand reparations

Nothing less that 40 ectos and a mini-mule will do

The article was aimed at really bad pve players. If that's not you, then it shouldn't offend you.

I run into a lot of bad pve'ers when pugging (which I enjoy more than NPC companionship). I often have take my own heroes to fill out the group after I get my teammates to ding their heroes' skillbars. I like to call Mending when the wammo puts it on himself, usually get a chuckle from the others. However, we can get through missions/quests just fine.

Deleet · Mar 01, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

This reminds me of the Mohammed crisis here in Denmark.
Some people are just emotional.

Drazaar · Mar 01, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

It's out of juice guys. Seriously...

But... But I still didnt get my tropical fruit smoothy

Sorry couldnt resist that was the first thought that came to my head when I read that last bit

In seriousness though to echo thoughts and such. After pondering some new info.

Im pretty sure I put whatever malice/anger I felt to Anet/the author.
In the end what people said is all we can hope for, that A net and the author take to heart how upset that artical made people feel so in the future these frayed feelings dont resurface

I do think its time to put this to bed now and look into just moving on and let bygones be bygones. Both sides have there share of "noobs" and "l33t pros" and to me personally both sides are equal players. No side should look down upon the other and embrace both sides and help each other out fairly. I think you need to allow both sides to try each others side out and if you notice there struggling, i dont think a "QQ L2P" is in order. It shouldnt be that hard to say somethign along the lines of "Instead of mending on you warrior id recomend these skills instead..." This way the person trying to learn a transition instead of being turned off is instead thankful.

I guess in the end the moral of this bad bit is for us to be more careful with how we word things.

Now cant we all just............ get along. GROUP HUG YALL!!!!

Joking

DreamWind · Mar 01, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Really, it isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be. That's why I posted in an earlier comment that legal maneuvering in civil suits aren't the best way to determine objective reality.

Eh that wasn't really the main point of my post. The main point was people shouldn't have been offended and Anet shouldn't offer an apology. I just put that example in because somebody earlier mentioned McDonalds like they offer apologies for everything and that clearly isn't the case. Just look at their food...

Aejorii · Mar 02, 2007, 01:20 AM // 01:20

My, what a large gathering of carebears we have in this thread.